Understanding The Podcast Listener Journey – Jennifer Han – Creating The Greatest Show – Episode # 040

by | Apr 20, 2023 | Creating The Greatest Show, Podcast Distribution

This episode’s guest is an international marketing leader and podcasting visionary. Jennifer Han is the Chief Marketing Officer at Ausha and she previously hosted Culinariste. Jennifer shares insights into how podcast hosts can optimize their podcast for maximum impact and engagement to create successful podcasts that resonate with their audience and build a loyal following. Jennifer also delves into the stages of the podcast Listener Journey model.

Watch this episode of Creating The Greatest Show featuring Jennifer Han!

Podcasting Takeaways

  • Podcast listening apps are the first point of contact with your listeners, and you need to optimize how your podcast appears in-app to get them to press play. This means making sure your cover art stands out and using keywords in your title and description to make it easier for listeners to find your podcast.
  • There are four funnel stages in the podcast Listener Journey model: 1. Discovery, 2. Activation, 3. Play, and 4. Love.
  • Adding chapters to your podcast can help make the listening experience more dynamic and can be used to enrich the experience for your listeners. By dividing your episode into chapters, you can make it easier for listeners to find the information they’re interested in.
  • Show listeners who you are by creating short-form content from your podcast for “snacking content” that helps them connect with you. This can include photos, videos, gifs, music, etc. to increase how engaging the podcast clip is.
  • Leverage your communities to cross-promote your podcast and build your listenership. This means reaching out to other bloggers, podcasters, and influencers in your niche and asking them to promote your podcast to their audience.
  • Optimize every step of the listener journey to get them to love your podcast and become loyal listeners. This means focusing on each stage of the funnel and making sure you’re doing everything you can to keep your listeners engaged and interested.

Quote of the Show

“My mantra about podcasting is you have to be obsessed by your listeners.”

– Jennifer Han

Connect with Jennifer Han

Clips from the Episode

Ways to Tune In:



Casey Cheshire: here we go. We’re doing this thing. We hit the button, the energy’s flowing. And guess what? My guest today is joining me from across an entire ocean that’s right in France. I can’t wait to introduce you to her. She’s an international marketing leader in thought leader, previously a podcaster and, a senior executive that joined a small little podcasting company that has grown it times two, grown.

This company, her previous show was the colorist. [00:01:00] She’s now the chief marketing officer at Ausha. Jennifer Han. Welcome.

Jennifer Han: Hi, Casey. Hi everyone. Thank you

so much for having me.

Casey Cheshire: Isn’t it amazing that we can be chatting and you’re over there? I’m over here. Maybe next time I’ll fly to

Jennifer Han: You should. You should please come to grab a coffee with me in Paris.

Casey Cheshire: I’m in. You don’t have to twist my arm, so I can’t wait to dive into this y your platform, and your experience with podcasting. Let’s just ask this first question to get things started off the right way. Jennifer, pull back the curtain for us on your experience and your show and share your most important strategy for a great podcast.

Jennifer Han: The, my mantra about podcasting is to be, you have to be obsessed by your listeners for once it’s okay and healthy to have an obsession, but yeah the, my mantra for everyone and myself [00:02:00] is really to be obsessed by your listeners. They have to be at the heart of everything you do about your podcast.

A lot of podcasters today and even yesterday, are so focused, on their own needs, but instead, they should really, focus on what their listeners want. Because so far what are, why are we creating podcasts? It’s because we have a message to share and we want to be heard.

So if we don’t think about who is getting, our message, who is getting the content it’s better, to not have a podcast and just talk to yourself, in your room or at the only, at your family dinner,

Casey Cheshire: it reminds me I’ve seen a TV show where they secretly videotape people singing in their cars, right? Because

Jennifer Han: such a great idea.

Casey Cheshire: You just sing and you don’t care who’s listening and how, or how good you

Jennifer Han: Or in your shower. Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: Or in your shower. Yes. Yes. But the idea [00:03:00] of us just talking to ourselves, that’s not quite a podcast, right?

It, yes, you could talk to yourself, you could record, you muttering things to yourself while you’re making the bed, but it’s something different. Podcasting has an audience and what is it about the medium that’ll cause? So many of us can be selfish when we’re just thinking about ourselves.

Even I need to be reminded to think about more about my audience. Where does this come from? Why do we forget? There are people listening.

Jennifer Han: I guess that’s sometimes you are, so focused on your content on what you wanted to say. That I think sometimes you, you forgot that someone, somebody will hear that, that all your words will come into someone’s ears, literally. And even though it seems pretty obvious, and pretty simple, but sometimes I truly believe that the simplest strategy are always the best, and just keeping that in.

We’ll already do a lot for your podcast.

Casey Cheshire: The [00:04:00] simplest strategy is, I agree, simplicity, right? Complexity is the enemy of execution. If we can have a simple strategy, we know we can at least execute it and get it done. Talk to me then about what kind of strategies do you have for. For creating and growing, a thriving podcast.

Jennifer Han: At my company Ausha we are a new generation of hosting platform that also provides, all the most advanced tools to grow the audience, to track the listening details, but also to get revenue from the show. But our mission, is really to focus on podcast growth, on audience growth.

Because today, in the market you don’t have issues of production. Everybody got great ideas, and great host. And that’s not an issue today for most of us. You don’t have neither an issue of distribution since. So many listening apps, so you can be distributed quite easily as well.

But what is [00:05:00] the biggest, issue and what is the biggest pain point for protesters is the audience growth, and that is why. That is why most you have so much what we call the pot fading, this kind of phenomenon because a lot of people just stop suddenly, you know the show.

But why are they doing that? It’s not because they don’t suddenly don’t believe, in their concept anymore. Or because they lost, their message on the way. Not at all. It’s just because. They were discouraged because they were having so so low number of listening because they have such a small audience that they got discouraged.

They just give up, after that. And that is why, we create, that is why first we created Ausha. But the, but this is also the mission, that is driving us every day because we truly believe that if we want to contribute to this industry, to contribute, to help podcasters to be heard, to amplify their voices.

We need to focus on audience growth. And for that we believe as well that we need to help podcasters by providing two main things. [00:06:00] First the most advanced and relevant. To help them to grow the audience. A second point is all the education, the know-how. Because one thing is to have the tools, but you need to also understand why you need to use them and how you need to use them.

And that is why we are, developing that from breakfast to dinner since four years now. We are also obsessed about that, because we want to give the best tool for them in order to to help them to save time and energy in order to promote their show.

But also we’re producing a lot of free content speed tutorials and so on, to, in order to help them to better understand. And that is why as well. We created one what I call the listener journey. So in order for you to picture that I’m a 10 years experienced marketer, of course I took inspiration from the most famous marketing framework.

I’m pretty sure that you know about the r the R framework, the pirate metrics we got inspired by this [00:07:00] framework in order to also. A model that I that I’m always, sharing with all the podcasters where we are collaborate with the principle of this model is quite simple.

Maybe I can project it.

Casey Cheshire: Yes, let’s do it. Modern technology. Let’s go.

Jennifer Han: the beauty of this tool. So for the ones who are watching, the video you. See right now on the screen. So the model I’m talking about, but don’t worry for the one who are following only by the audio because I will go through each stage. So you need to picture a funnel that will go from an a known people that’s is not aware all about your content and about you and how through four main stages, we will turn him into a loyal listen.

And in this funnels for we have four main stages. So the first one is the stage of discovery. Then you go through activation, then you go through [00:08:00] ing and then you finish on the love for each stage. I can describe you quickly if you want. What are the main objectives? Yeah. So the first.

Casey Cheshire: This is, by the way, this is really cool. The idea of just getting a bit of a systematic approach to just like we do. It’s almost like straight outta the marketing podcast world. It’s just, Hey, this is what, for those of you that aren’t marketers, th this is what you do. You walk people through stages until they get to the point where you want them.

So I’m excited. Dive.

Jennifer Han: Great. I know that you will love it, as a marketer that you are Casey.

Casey Cheshire:

I’m, yeah, I’m already sold.

Jennifer Han: I’m glad. So for the first stage of discovery here at this stage, your main objective is to be visible everywhere. So you need to find and reach your target audience. And you need to be where your listeners or potential listeners will be or.

At the second stage of activation[00:09:00] here, your main objective is to be picked by your targets among all the contents they can consume about your topics. Also among all podcasts that already exist. Here your main objective is to trigger the interests about your content. The first stage of playing.

Now here the objective is to increase your listening to make your potential listeners to press the play. And at this stage, they know about your show because they saw you, they saw your name in the discovery stage. There are triggers. So they clicked on whatever content you push on the activation stage.

You still haven’t converted them. So here you need to convert them. And then this is how you grow your audience. But you don’t stop here because here is the only, the first trial, let’s say. So then you need to work also on the fourth stage. And you don’t, you need to not forget this last stage about love.

[00:10:00] Because here they know about you. They heard you for a first time. Podcasts is all about how you make them come back again and again on your show, and you make them listen more episodes, you make them addicted to your show. You want them to sense an alarm, in the waiting of your next episode.

Casey Cheshire: I love this. I can’t wait to step through each one of these things so we could discovery, activation, play, and love. Fun words as well. Love this. So let’s start with discovery. Be visible everywhere.

Jennifer Han: Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: How? How do we do that everywhere or everywhere that we want listeners from or Tell me more about

Jennifer Han: yeah we’ve prepared. So of course I’m not sure you will have four hours with me, but yeah, I can give you, all the

must have.

Casey Cheshire: I think squad cast can handle it.

Jennifer Han: But yeah, I can give you at least the, the must have in each stage what is the most important,

according to me. Yeah. So for [00:11:00] the first stage of discovery Here on the first hand you have to be visible for podcast listeners. For that you need to be distributed, on all 22 major podcast listening apps.

And you know what, Casey, today, most of the podcasters only distribute to the two biggest ones, apple and Spotify. I don’t get it, because why are you limiting yourself? Why are you limiting your voice only to two platform when you have so many platforms out there and it’s in the seo strategy, you need to adapt the long tail strategy here as well for the


And you need to be distributed on all platforms everywhere, just. Picking, because you have probably, you’ll have also people interested in your topic, in these smaller platforms. And even though these platforms, individually will make you less audience, cumulated together, it can bring a nice additional audience,

Casey Cheshire: That’s a really good point. I was about to [00:12:00] push back on you and say I could imagine they only did two out of 22 platforms because Apple and Spotify have the line share of the listens. But you’re right. There is that concept in marketing of the long tail and. Those things add up and I have to imagine it.

Some of these other apps are probably innovating around discovery too. And so it’s really hard to discover new things on Apple to discover new things on Spotify and they’ve made it a little bit easier. But there are other platforms that. Can make it so much, like you have an interest and they’re like, here’s some great podcasts for, so if you’re on there, maybe you get discovered that much more than anyone else, especially if that platform’s trying to make it their job to help you get discovered.

Jennifer Han: Yeah, definitely. And also you need to know, to put yourself as a podcast listeners and most of the time creators, we are also podcast listeners. You always stick to your favorite listening app, meaning that, I don’t know Casey, o, on which app or your listening podcasts.

Casey Cheshire: It’s definitely

Jennifer Han: Definitely Spotify. Okay. I’m listening. [00:13:00] Podcast on Apple, and

mram, you’re not going on other apps where, so it means that all the other apps like teachers, like even Amazon Music and these and so on, there are other types of people you know that will not discover you if you are not getting listed there.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah, that’s so true. That’s definitely true. Okay, so I never heard that number before. 2 22 apps. You need to be, do you have a checklist? Is there like an Ausha checklist that says, here’s the

Jennifer Han: Of course, but you have it directly in our platform then. Because so far we have

the simplest

Casey Cheshire: you got me there.

Jennifer Han: system in Ausha because you got listed and also on the biggest app. So you know how it can be some kind of time consuming, to get listed and. Each of them. But that is why we created the simplest system in just in few clicks.

You get listed in all of them. But you can choose, you can still be picky if you want. And you can choose to only be listed on, on, on two or [00:14:00] three. If you want to. So yeah, so you have them all listed there.

Casey Cheshire: Okay, cool. I like it. You got me there. 22. All right, so get discovered. Be the places where people are.

Jennifer Han: Yeah. Where

your Yeah. Yeah. Where, yeah. Where the, but the podcast listeners are but,

Discovery don’t, doesn’t stop. At Listening’s app because on the second hand you can also, and you should extend your reach by being visible from people that maybe are not podcast listeners or maybe they

will not find you in listening apps so they can find you, on other places and sometimes on broader channels.

So you need to extend your visibility. Listening apps as well. This is something that a lot of forget about, and about that. One of my first recommendations are first to be visible on the first search engine of the world, which is Google. And Google we’ve [00:15:00] just a website dedicated to your show.

Then you can appear, on, on some search page results. If you manage your Meta Data’s rights then thanks to your website, dedicated to your show. Sometimes people will look at, I don’t know how to best create a marketing podcast and.

Bam, Casey, your podcast, will be maybe the

first of the second results in the Google page. And then they discover, your content and then they also maybe discover the medium of podcasts. So yeah, don’t be shy, try to extend your reach on Google as well. But don’t stop there.

There, also, go on the second search engine of. Which is YouTube part of the Google group as well. And even more now, nowadays YouTube is investing more and more in podcasts. They’re launching new features on YouTube podcasts. Take that, that vibe take that trend, and be visible as well on this on this engine and open, your content to a whole new audience.

Casey Cheshire: I like this. Okay, [00:16:00] so now one of the questions I had relating to a website. Does Ausha have some website templates to put I wonder if there’s a dot. Does your app do this? Because I’ve seen different apps and yay, we’re hosting platform. But then man, the templates for what your site looks like are kind of garbage.

And then you don’t really wanna use ’em. And then you think maybe I have to go use

Jennifer Han: I feel you.

Casey Cheshire: too. So how are those, can they stand alone? Can we have a, can we have a custom domain, like

Jennifer Han: Yeah, of course you can.

Yeah. One, one nice thing is that once for example, when a podcaster join us and get hosted on Ausha you get automatically a full, let’s say, a full toolkits of of a website of a not smart player. Also a smart link, a unique link to listen.

Everything. Decline instantly. And and you can customize a lot of thing in it. So all the background, the colors and whatever you want. And but what one thing that you need to know is that [00:17:00] we are very exigent about design and we are design lover. And pay a lot of attention to these tools in the platform as well, all the backies used by the protesters, but especially we’re getting war, putting more attention to all the communication support used by the protesters. Because according to us the website of your show, the smartling of your show, these are the, how do you say, like the showcase of your show.

It is the packing. Let’s say that

my background came from, the beauty industry. And so we had all the packaging work, but here is the


Your smart link is the packaging of your show. It is the first thing you know,

our listeners our potential listeners who is discovering you.

He’s discovering you through this website of this player or this smarting first, and it needs to. Beautiful. It needs to be comfortable, with a great ux, great ui. And it needs to be, At your colors, and respect your universe. Even on the smart [00:18:00] thing we have a little artificial intelligence that will also pick the color for you.

If you don’t have one, recording, you’ll

analyze your podcast cover, and we’ll propose to you, Hey, what do you think about this color? Yeah, if you don’t have any inspiration, he will help

you to find one. But if you have, you can do whatever you want. And for enterprises, we even propose so the personalization the customization story about the domain but also all the elements can be rebranded to your brand as well.

Casey Cheshire: Wow. Good. Good. And perfectly said that you. And I, I respect the fact that, Paris definitely has beauty built in by default, so your app does as well. It really considers it, and I think we, we get a little too u utilitarian, we get a little too basic sometimes and think that, ah, no one’s gonna see this, but that’s how we buy, that’s how we select.

To your point about d. You can be in many places, but then you’re not gonna get to some of these other steps because if your album [00:19:00] artwork looks like you put 15 seconds into it, then people are gonna assume that maybe your show put 15 seconds in effort into it. So maybe it’s not that good and maybe they won’t, maybe they’ll try it anyways.

But you wanna give yourself every chance you can to present your best.

Jennifer Han: Yeah, definitely. And how many times we get frustrated when you have a, such a good product, but in a crappy packaging. And then every time it doesn’t

sell on Shell, but it’s the same thing in podcasts, it’s the same thing. You can do the best content as you want, but if you. If your showcase elements are wrong, are not good, then people will also think that, you told me that all the websites that you have so far are garbage.

Think about the potential listeners when they’re arriving on your website. The first thing they will think as well is that, oh, that podcast might be a garbage as well. And that’s too bad.

That’s too bad.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. A hundred percent. Too bad. So we can’t allow for that. Perfect. So beautiful ui ux discovery are we still in discovery or it almost feels like we’re blending in now to the next step where

Jennifer Han: on each stage, you’re right. We need

To also [00:20:00] move on. One last thing on discovery though I was talking about YouTube. YouTube is according some profitable our partners in Edison research Studies. YouTube is the first channel to discover a new podcast for listeners.

And the second channel to discover new podcasts for listeners are the social media. So for discovery, you also need to go on social media. It’s not only a retention channel but for that before going to social media, I need to warn you because you need to know the rules, of social media and the rules of social media is it’s quite basic when you think about it.

You need to feed the monster, literally, you like all the social media. Regular and frequent publishing. But it’s so time and energy consuming. That is why we also integrated a social media manager in the platform, but I can tell you more about it later on.

Casey Cheshire: Oh my goodness. Oh, that’s cool. You just thought of everything. I like

Jennifer Han: That’s what we try to do, every day for podcasters.

Casey Cheshire: Okay, [00:21:00] so social media. Okay. Discover. Okay.

Jennifer Han: Are you letting now your to-do?

Casey Cheshire: oh man I’m running out of paper on my notes over here already. I’m

Jennifer Han: Oh my God.

Casey Cheshire: know what I’m gonna, I’m gonna start going in the margins in the second. So on the social side, feet, you gotta feed the monster, but you also have to play with the rules.

What’s the. That was surprising to me. I understand YouTube for sure. I’ve discovered many things on YouTube, but the idea of social helping you be discovered, what’s the best social for you to do in order for you to get discovered?

Jennifer Han: Hashtag and cross promotion. For example, on Instagram, which is the first social media for podcasters you need to use a lot of hashtags and use the most relevant one according your subjects. So all your keywords need to be in the hashtags for the, all.

The Instagrammers, the people who are using the social media to see you, appear on the feed if you have some budgets. It can be nice also to, to use some a bit of paid, advertising on that. But yeah. And, but if you don’t have one smart thing to do is.

To [00:22:00] help each other and try to find, over I don’t know, Instagram accounts in order to propose some cross promotion, find another let’s say micro influencers who have the same size of community as yours. DM him and propose to him that you can mention his account and his c he can do it on his side as well, and mention your podcast maybe, or things like that.

And try, to yeah, leverage each each diverse community.

Casey Cheshire: Leverage each other’s community hashtags and cross promotion. Simple, straightforward. Let’s go. Let’s do

Jennifer Han: Simply as the best.

Casey Cheshire: it. Anything else on discovery

Jennifer Han: No, I think we can go on activation.

Casey Cheshire: okay. Yeah. I know you have two or three hours on each

Jennifer Han: Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: We’re scratching the surface.

Jennifer Han: And you told me that we have only one hour together.

Casey Cheshire: Oh, did I mentioned that I thought I said eight hours. I thought I said eight.

Jennifer Han: Okay, I need to take my day off.

Casey Cheshire: No. It still counts as working.

Jennifer Han: Ask my boss.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. Okay.[00:23:00]

Jennifer Han: So if you want to move to activation, just to, to remind you at this stage, so you have been seen, on some channels your name appear to their eyes but you need them still to, to click on. So far they’re not ready yet to listen to your butt. Yes. You still need to make them click on your name first.

And here the most important is that they need to know a bit more, about you, about your show. What is the best, of providing them a little bits of tastes? When, you know I’m passionate about gastronomy and food and what’s the best hook for me is just make me try and then I will buy fully if I love it.

It’s the same in

Casey Cheshire: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Jennifer Han: It’s the same in podcast. I’m pretty sure. Casey, if I give you a piece of chocolate, it will buy the full box if you like it.

Casey Cheshire: Yes, I will buy the full box.

Jennifer Han: So for pot,

Casey Cheshire: I’ll buy

Jennifer Han: yeah. You buy several bucks for sure. But

Casey Cheshire: Hey, same thing with wine real quick. There’s a local wine store nearby and they’re constantly going to France and other countries and they, every [00:24:00] weekend they have a free wine

Jennifer Han: Yes. You’re completely right. This is the model of vineyards.

Casey Cheshire: go. And it’s the best. It’s the best sample. And you, this is amazing. Inevitably, I’m always buying, I have five samples.

I’m, I have to buy one of them. They’re really good. It’s not just oh, ca that was an okay wine that you tried yourself. They know what they’re doing and they picked really good ones. And so then you must continue. So how does that tie into podcasting?

Jennifer Han: so what is the piece of chocolate? Or what is it? What is the sip of the wine for podcast? For me, they are the short trailers. Like the short audio extract that you turn into videos for

social media. So these video trailers you need to sample them and to share and distribute them Wherever you can, because these are the short of your podcast with your voice and you need to to find, the most relevant extract, and the one who will.

The most, all the people. So if you have a funny element or a cliff onger or whatever, or, the punchline, the mantra I shared with you oh, Jennifer Han

say, be [00:25:00] obsessed to my listeners. Oh my God. Okay, what’s happening next? And so you need to find the right extractions for you to video traders because social media, this monster love videos way more than visual, way more than pictures.

You also need to. Auto transcription. We have a lot of podcastors who told us that there’s saw a huge difference in their KPIs when they put transcription and compared to when they don’t put it it’s way more efficient with the transcription. Yeah. So you need to provide all these samples.

These samples, because here is the way of tasting your podcast. And we were mentioning about, when you put on your social media, most of the time you have to use a unique link to listen to your podcast. So one link where the listeners can go and, on their favorite platforms.

Here at Ausha we call that the Smart link. And on the smart. Here is where you do your your first impression and you don’t want to miss your first impression. On our smart link, we also put it directly a player, [00:26:00] meaning that when they’re discovering it, on social media and they click on your unique link to listen before, going on a listening app, they can.

Your last episode. And either they just get stuck and they’ll listen to the full episode on it if they want, or, get, they can just have a taste of it and then, continue on their favorite listen apps to listen to the fuel the Fuller episode.

Casey Cheshire: Wow. Love it. SmartLink. So the, if they’re only gonna do one click, give them the perfect click so

Jennifer Han: Exactly. You get it.

Casey Cheshire: Follow along. Yeah. Yeah. Don’t waste that click. So many times, even on the marketing side, I see someone with an ad and it goes to the homepage. You promised me something and now I go to your home.

It is just a waste of a click. So if you’re only gonna get that one, if you work so hard on that previous step and we’re here, we’re trying to earn that click, make sure we make the most of it. Smart links. Very

Jennifer Han: The less steps you have until you are, until they hear your voice, the better it is for your conversion.

Casey Cheshire: [00:27:00] A lot of it do. Do you see people actually playing those trailers or is it more of discovery on social, like a YouTube short or reel or something? But do people actually listen to trailers?

Jennifer Han: Most of the time, since we’re doing, most 32nd lengths in average, They are listening to them. But I would say that still it’s quite short. People are almost all the time listening to it, but you need to secure, the first seconds. It’s like in any content, audio or video the first minutes are the first seconds of the most important.

If you don’t hook them instantly, they just pass because they have a lot of things in their field.

Casey Cheshire: Okay. Amazing. We’ve been discovered, we’ve been activated. We’re not even gonna have time. We’re gonna, should we just, what do we do? Yeah. No, I have no paper. I have room for one more and we have two more left. I do, I’ll start writing in my hands. [00:28:00] I’ll be a crazy person. I’ll come out of the studio, be like, guys, I just had this great conversation. And I’m like writing all over my hands. And they’ll call the ambulance.

They’ll call, yeah, call the doctor.

Jennifer Han: So Casey, about the first stage of playing well,


So let’s play. When they arrive, on the listening app, so that is covered, you will send you the click on it and they’ll arrive on the listening app. Hey, here, the student press, they haven’t pressed play yet. So you need to

Casey Cheshire: Oh no. What was activation though? Did we just, we got the, oh, that was the trailer, or That was the click to get

Jennifer Han: Yeah. to get it, to have a taste of it. But you still need to make them press play and sit and listen to the full episode and here. At this stage they are alone facing, the listening app. And the only thing they are seeing about you because, listening app, they’re quite very like pure design.

So it’s very sober. So the only thing that is representing you is your cover and your metadatas. So meaning the title and des, [00:29:00] and the description, which means like very minimalists and you have only these free things to convince. So work them. So your cover, you need to have big elements.

Try to be colorful and be outstanding, compared to the other covers of your category, of podcast, of your genre of podcast to do some benchmark. Try to see where your cover will appear, and try to be just, more, more outstanding than the other ones who will be next to you.

And also if you need to put words, In big, very big because we need to remember the size of a smartphone. So the size of your cover will appear like in not even one centimeter. Can you remind me in the US if you.

Casey Cheshire: Inches. Yeah. Yeah. But either way, it’ll get smaller, PE. It’s like when I see a road sign and it was designed by someone who didn’t realize the sign was going to be next to the highway. I can’t read it. It’s just too small. So less is more. You don’t need to have 30, a whole

Jennifer Han: Yeah,

Casey Cheshire: Have enough that we wanna [00:30:00] click and see the play. Like the goal is to get them to play. So don’t give them your whole essay. Tell them your life story. Just give them a couple words.

Jennifer Han: And on the title and the description you need to also put straightaway your keyword. Don’t put words that doesn’t matter. Just put what you think, the few words that will hook them to listen to your content. And on the description here you can be. You can be greedy.

You can put whatever you want to have 4000th character you can put in it. So just go for it. Here. You can go very like deep through and exhaustive. What?

Casey Cheshire: Are you saying, is that per episode

Jennifer Han: yeah. Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: See, that’s great. In, in, I’m, not everyone knows this, but I’ve shopped platforms recently, and not all of them allow you to have that many words. So if your show notes or you have nice bullets or takeaways or they don’t have room and it also presents it in a weird way and it doesn’t

Jennifer Han: Yeah, on the show notes, you should, you need to stay sharp, but on episode notes you need to go to go deep and and to be the most complete as possible [00:31:00] because I don’t know if you if you heard about, but, one of the latest survey of podcast hosts. They discovered that 40% of listeners discover podcasts by typing, some keywords in the search bar of the listening.

40%, meaning that we are looking for, I don’t know how to podcast or

marketing podcast marketing subject, or expert. And here, because you Casey put in the, in our, episode notes. Then they will find it, and then they will discover your show, and then they will discover Casey and eh, okay, great.

Now you hook


Casey Cheshire: Okay. Very cool.

Jennifer Han: One, another element to help to, to play well again. The first point was about how you get you to make them convert in listening apps, but again, you need to work outside listening apps. The world is big. So outside listening apps then you need to, you have your player, your audio.

Which is the smart player, at Ausha. And so you need to put your player where, wherever you can. So on your own website, if you have or you can also, try to deal and again to do some [00:32:00] cross-promotion deal. We, with other websites that might have the same target audience than you.

Like Casey for you you have so many, mar marketing bloggers and so on, and, if you just send them the emails like, Hey my, my podcast is about that. If you like it, you know what? We are having the same target audience put this player and you just put an H T M L, and bat code and they just have to copy and paste it on the website.

And you. Propose to them that you will mention, their blog on your podcast and yeah, that’s it. You can also leverage each other’s communities again.

Casey Cheshire: Love love. Very cool. Le leverage the communities build from there. We

Jennifer Han: And again, the player is just a tool for you. And yeah, again, the best showcase for your podcast.

Casey Cheshire: Because that’s the thing that’s. They’re hitting play. That’s the click. So maximize again, the, we’re optimizing every step of the path

Jennifer Han: Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: so that makes total sense.

Jennifer Han: And

Once they click on the Bhutan play once they convert you can [00:33:00] still, enrich the listening experience. I don’t know if you ever heard about the chapters you can do some chaptering of your.

Casey Cheshire: I’ve seen that on

Jennifer Han: Yeah, you can do it on YouTube, but you can also do it on Ausha.

And you can, for example, define, some chapters. Let’s say for example on our episode Casey, you can create chapters like for or each stage, of the listener journey model. So let’s say like Jennifer’s talking about discovery here until the time code we took four hours or after the fifth hours, she’s talking about the stage play and things like that.

And you put the chapter you. You cut, your episode according chapters. So it also make, the listening more dynamics. It’s okay that listeners are not listening, the full every second of your podcast. You just want them to get the information they want.

They’re not interested. Interesting. And maybe they don’t have to the time today, they will come back, to listen to the few. At least they know that, oh, Casey is so nice, he got the for me. Then I. I can go straight to the, to straight, to the information I want. And on [00:34:00] our platform when you do the chapters, you can even have fun by putting for each chapter a c t A.

So for example, you can say okay I don’t know. Jennifer mentioned about, yeah. On the play stage, she mentioned the platform. And to try, the chapter feature here I can put a link, to the website, to ausha.co. So she, so they can try it directly, but you can also have even more firm by changing the picture.

On the player you have the picture of the cover. Most of the time this is standard, but at the chapter you can choose to, I don’t know, to put a screenshot. I don’t know.

A player of the chapter or if you want to, I don’t know, just put a picture of a cat or whatever, you can put whatever you want, but you can change the picture and that’s enrich, the experience and that’s nice.

Casey Cheshire: Especially if someone was say, talking through a. A funnel of how to grow your podcast, and they had four key steps. They could show things on each chapter that, that’s

Jennifer Han: Or if you have many guests or I dunno, like you have many chronics many journalists, then you can put [00:35:00] picture of each of one when they’re talking.

Be creative.

Casey Cheshire: Yes, it definitely opens up another element that you can design and create from, which is really special, so that it’s not just this one dimensional. We’re not just doing audio, we’re not just doing audio and video, we’re doing audio video. And remember, we’re changing the cover art, like things are happening.

Fantastic. So before we turn into pumpkins, let’s the last stage,

Jennifer Han: Of.

Casey Cheshire: which is the most important

Jennifer Han: Yes. Because

love is so important in life, and you know that because we are French, we’re so romantic,

Casey Cheshire: Yes, of

Jennifer Han: right? About love for me, there are free, nice, have free must have that you need to work through. So first you need to. To undress your podcast, you need to show them what is behind the cover.

Who is behind the cover? Who and what happened behind the microphone? The best thing is to invite them, in the backstage, because I don’t know it happened to you. You know when you are, when there is a show you like and a host. You you always [00:36:00] want to Google and see how he look like, and after you sing his face, you

want to know what he did in his life.

And after that, he’ll continue today. But this is how you create attachment to human. That’s just, it’s proper to us. This is our instinct. So if you want them to love you, you need to give them something, so you need to show them that I say you need to show them who you are.

How you do that concretely, you need to create snacking content. A lot of small contents, to enrich also the experience around your podcast. I don’t know, you can show some pictures or videos about the recording session. When we didn’t start the record and we were laughing about other things, why not capturing that moment and share with them, and in, in, in things about yourself.

Casey, You have such an expertise, but you are also, you have such an you told me that you came many many times in France and you were also speaking a bit of Mandarin and things like that. I’m sorry.

Casey Cheshire: Oh, that’s great. Yeah.

Jennifer Han: It’s

Casey Cheshire: Just don’t tell everyone that [00:37:00] I have a, that I have a third arm. Just don’t share that with people. Yeah. And I’m

Jennifer Han: you hide it well, you hide it well,

Casey Cheshire: either. Yeah.

Jennifer Han: but yeah.

Casey Cheshire: So you’re giving people inside access, you’re giving them behind the scenes so they can feel special, like they’re a part of, they can see in the wings of the theater. Yeah. It just, it feels special to have, it’s like a v i p

Jennifer Han: Exactly. And you give them some some elements to hook, their attachment to you because you cannot. Only love a voice. That’s, even though it’s pretty intimate already but it’s not enough, and you need to picture, everything about the person.

So then you can attach, yeah, so again, in our platform, because it’s a lot of work to do that, of course we are aware about that. Again, in our social media manager integrating in the platform, you can auto publish directly, all the video trailers, but you can also

publish, the pictures or texts or whatever in order to, to quantify your old, calendar.

For social media, [00:38:00] again, our objective is to save you. Energy and money.

Casey Cheshire: I could see even doing a whole show on love on podcaster, and back to the very beginning when we first started you, you were talking about being obsessed with your listeners and I can see a funnel, I can see a stepped progression like this. At the heart of it, it is the listener. The listener was the one.

It wasn’t the podcaster going down that path. It was the listener all the way to love and to being a loyal listener at the

Jennifer Han: Exactly.

Casey Cheshire: Tell me real quick then, how can we find out more about you? Where do you want us to connect with you, and then where do we find this platform that we’ve been hearing so many things?

Jennifer Han: On me personally, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. So you can find me at Jennifer Han, h a n. And if there are a lot of people with the same name as me, you just add Ausha or L’Oreal. My previous company, and I’m pretty sure you will find me there. And about my, [00:39:00] my my platform about Ausha.

You can try and by yourself, we have a free trial without putting your credit card. It is on the website, Ausha.co, so a u s h a.co, c o.

Casey Cheshire: Oh, okay. Perfect. Yeah, and I did see that free trial on there. Worth checking out. All these things built into it. It was almost like a running joke at some point. It was like, oh yeah, that sounds great. Oh, yep. It’s built

in. Oh, that sounds great too. Yep. That’s built in. So I’m looking forward to

Jennifer Han: yeah. You share

Casey Cheshire: out. Maybe we can chat again at some later point and I’ll tell you my experiences and then maybe we’ll

Jennifer Han: please.

Casey Cheshire: of our podcasts over

Jennifer Han: Yeah,

please provide me your, all your feedback. But yeah you are right. What a funny thing is we are so we exist since four years now, but we are launching the US since o only half a year. And you know what

A funny story I can tell you about is when we launch in the US we start to do some ads, on social media and the first ads we received some comments from American podcasters thinking that we were.[00:40:00]

Because they’re like, it’s too good to be true. And

yeah, and they were like, say, like they was discussing, between them in comments of the post saying is it a scam? Like it’s not possible to have all in that, and at the same price as they o over hosting platform.

And we had,

Our committee manager was struggling spending like no, we are not a scam. We does exist. It’s many years. It’s just that Now we are new in the US we exist before and we have

Casey Cheshire: but that’s what a scam would say, Jennifer. It’s like when you send an email and I’ll, sometimes I’ll be like, this isn’t actually spam. Like this is me typing that, but I’m like, that’s what the spam message would say too. What do you do? I don’t know how, I don’t know how you, you have to just check it out, you come on a podcast and then you chat people.

I don’t think you’re cgi. If you are, you’re really good. Cgi, real, you may be the first AI and if you

Jennifer Han: Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: meet you. But I think you’re a real

Jennifer Han: you too.

Casey Cheshire: Hello world. Fantastic. Jennifer, thank you mu so much for coming on here. [00:41:00] Teaching me sharing your app and your pro progression with me in this model, the Listener Journey model.

Thank you so much

for coming

Jennifer Han: pleasure.

I hope it will help a lot of people.

Casey Cheshire: A hundred percent. And I will say I’m impressed with our internet speeds because I’ve had better reception chatting with you than with some people in Western United States.

Jennifer Han: Oh yeah.

Casey Cheshire: whatever fiber optic cable we’re traveling here together. It’s working quite well. I couldn’t even tell that you were like, Far that way.

So fantastic. Those listening. If you enjoyed this, if you learned something, and I know you did because I literally have two pages of notes over here. See, I even ran out. I had to put love in

Jennifer Han: on the arms as well.

Casey Cheshire: I don’t know. Nobody puts love in the corner, but I had to. Wow. If you’ve learned something, share this with one person, three people, 9,000 people.

But put your spin on it. What did you learn? What was your big takeaway? What was your big aha moment? And with that, Jennifer, thank you again for being on.

Jennifer Han: Thank you, Casey, for inviting me, and that’s such a beautiful idea. Share. Share with [00:42:00] one person. I love that.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah, just one person. Show the love, teach somebody, just one

Jennifer Han: Spread the love. I love that. Perfect. Thank you so


Casey Cheshire: percent. Yes. Yes. This has been another amazing episode of Creating the Greatest Show. We’ll see you all next


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